|Quotations from modern prophets||WhyProphets.com|
from modern prophets
on Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5
|Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5 refer to the period before 1830. Other verses may be less specific.|
|Introduction: potential confusion|
Three separate issues
Modern prophets teach that the "time, times, and dividing of a time" in Daniel 7 (and also in Revelation 13) refers to the Dark Ages. But lately I have been amazed to find that many church members still believe in the false Protestant idea that this period is still in the future.
This is probably because they confuse three separate issues.
The distinction becomes clear when we read what modern prophets have said.
Many Protestants teach that "the horn" and "the beast", are a figure they call "The Antichrist". This figure, they say, will arise in the near future, and probably rule for three and a half years. Anyone who reads the Bible can see that this is nonsense. The theory was invented in 1591 (and further developed in 1830) as a reaction against Bible prophecies that its inventors did not like. It has been very successful in confusing people and distracting them from what the Bible actually says.
For more details, see the page on Matthew 24 and Christian denial and the page on millennial prophecy and 1830.
In the quotations to this page, square brackets [ ] are my own, indicating where Daniel and Revelation are being quoted. Curved brackets ( ) were in the original text.
|Joseph Smith: Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5 refer to the Great Apostasy|
"If I did not think these two great prophecies [in Timothy and 2 Thessalonians] foretold completely the universal apostasy of Christendom, I should be tempted to enter into the consideration of the great prophecies to be found in the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation, and show how to both of these prophets, as well as unto Paul and other New Testament writers, the Lord revealed the rise of an earth power that would not only open his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and them who dwell in heaven: who would speak great words against the Most High, and so magnify himself as to stand up against the Prince of princes--but who would also make war with the saints and "prevail against them;" who would "wear out the saints of the Most High:" [Daniel 7] "destroy the mighty and the holy people;" [Daniel 8] "make war with the saints and overcome them." [Revelation 13] But believing that the two Passages quoted at length entirely cover the subject prophetically, I shall not here enter into further prophetic proofs either as to the corruptions of the Christian religion or the destruction of the Christian Church, deeming that what has already been set forth sufficient on that head."
- History of the Church, Vol.1, Introduction, Pg.xciii
|Parley P Pratt: Daniel 7:25 is pre-1830|
John the Apostle also predicted the rise and universal sway of a certain mystical power, a Babel of spiritual or religious confusion, in short -- "Mystery, Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.
This power should bear rule among all nations. The kings and rulers of the earth should be drunken with the wine of her fornication. The merchants of the earth should become rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
This power should, according to the Prophet Daniel and Apostle John, "wear out the Saints of the Most High;" "change times and laws;" "be drunken with the blood of the Saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus;" "destroy the mighty and the holy people;" "make war with the Saints, and overcome them" until a set time.
All these predictions, and many others, foretell the doom of the Gentile Church, its destruction from the earth, and the consequent decline and cessation of the science of Theology, and of its powers and blessings in the Gentile world.
- Key to the Science of Theology, p.15
|Orson Pratt: the woman on the scarlet beast (Revelation 17) is pre-1830|
The former-day kingdom of Christ, was set up in the days of the Apostles; that was overcome and destroyed out of the earth. The beasts made war upon them and prevailed against them, and they were banished from the earth, and the woman upon the scarlet-colored beast seems to have had dominion among all the nations, kindred, tongues and people, more or less. But in the latter-days the kingdom of God was to be built up on the earth that should never be destroyed; it was not to be like the former-day one, but it should stand for ever
- JD, Vol.18, p.180-181
Charles W. Penrose confirms this truth
And in the 14th Chapter [or revelation] he says that he saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven "having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people."
This revelation that was given to John will seem very strange to a great many people, who are under the impression that the everlasting Gospel has been upon the earth ever since it was taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. But if that were so, what need would there be for the Lord to send an angel with it? As I before explained, John saw the time when the whole earth would be under the influence of that wicked power which he saw sitting on a scarlet colored beast, and out of the cup which she held in her hand, all nations were to drink--not merely the heathen nations, but all the nations of the earth without exception. I am well aware that this will not sit very comfortably on the bosoms of some of our Christian friends. But what we are after, or should be after, is truth; and we should be desirous to obtain the truth notwithstanding that it may come in contact with our preconceived notions. John saw that the whole earth would go astray; and all the Apostles spoke more or less of the time when people would depart from the Church, when they would "not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts they would heap to themselves teachers having itching ears;" and says the Apostle, "they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned into fables;" their teachers shall "preach for doctrine the commandments of men;" and the Apostle might have added, that if they did not preach to suit the people, they would discharge them and hire others. The time was to come when "darkness would cover the earth, and gross darkness the people," but preceding the destruction of Babylon the great archangel was to come to earth with the everlasting Gospel to preach to all nations; and the burden of his message was to call upon the people with a loud voice, saying, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come; and worship Him that made heaven and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water," signifying that the people had gone astray and were worshiping some other god or gods. "
- JD, Vol.24, p.208-210
|From official church publications:|
The following was published in the early church publication "The Gospel Reflector". It was then reprinted in "Times and Seasons".
Nothing can be more definite and explicit, than that the feet and toes of the great image [in Daniel 2] represents the divisions of the Roman empire -- now the modern kingdoms of Europe. Again, nothing is more plain than that this stone, "cut out without hands," was to strike the toes of the image. . . . when we examine the organization of the kingdom of God in the days of the apostles, and put it in juxtaposition with those of the Catholic, and Protestant denominations, we discover that the latter is quite different from the former; and as there can be no regular succession of authority traced from the apostles to the present time, we are led to conclude that the rolling of this stone is a latter-day work. Daniel while speaking of these kingdoms says, he saw a little horn, which no doubt alludes to popery, that made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; "and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws, &c." John says, that power was given to the beast to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. Isaiah says, that "they have transgressed the law, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant." These with many other passages prove to a demonstration that there was to be a great falling away, and disorganization of the church after the days of the apostles.
Times and Seasons, Vol.3, p.610-611
|John Taylor and a Protestant minister and Daniel 7:25|
From Elder John Taylor's Journal, Liverpool, May 5, 1839, being a dialogue between Elder Taylor [T], and the Rev. John James [J], a celebrated "Church of England" Minister, in Liverpool, England.
T. Daniel further says that he should "think to change times, and seasons, and they should be given into his hand," &c. and if that power, being hostile to God, prevails against them, and they are given into his hand, what becomes of the church?
J. I will prove sir, that there has been a priesthood of apostolic succession, and a pure church, from the Savior's day until the present.
T. If you will, sir, and that church has pure, scriptural ordinances, I will give up my preaching, depart from this church, and join myself to that standard. . . .
J. I can, (beginning at our Savior,) trace an unbroken chain of apostolic succession until the present.
T. I suppose, sir, through the medium of the Roman Catholic Church.
J. Yes, sir.
T. You say that the Church of Rome is fallen; that she is the mother of harlots: if so, sir, how can she impart authority.
J. Just the same as she can the scriptures.
T. "Can an impure fountain, send forth pure streams? Our Savior said not.
J. Oh, it makes no difference.
T. Then, sir, if she had power to "bind on earth, and to bind in heaven," she also professed the power, (according to the scriptures) to "loose on earth, and to loose in heaven," and you know, that she cut off, and excommunicated, the Church of England, and all Protestant Reformers, and that would place you, sir, according to your creed, in a curious situation.
- Times and Seasons 3:693. Note that Daniel 7:25 is quoted as proof of a universal apostasy between the apostles and modern times.
|Bruce R McConkie, in "Mormon Doctrine"|
Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5 refer to the period before 1830
"That period of time between the loss of the true Church in the early part of the Christian Era and its restoration in modern times is scripturally measured in what have been termed prophetic days. John specified that this period of prolonged apostate darkness would prevail for 1260 days (Rev. 12:6), that is for 42 months (Rev. 13:5), or in other words "for a time, and times, and half a time." (Rev. 12:14; Dan. 7:25.) Obviously these 1260 days ended when the Church was restored in the latter-days."
- Mormon Doctrine: "Day"
|Joseph Fielding Smith, in "Gospel Doctrine"|
"Wearing out the saints" and "changing times and laws" (Daniel 7:25) refers to the Great Apostasy
"The Gentiles among whom the Priesthood had been established and the gospel preached, fell away also after the example of unbelief and the manner of the Jews, or children of Israel. God who spared not the natural branches, also cut off engrafted ones, and "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth," was set up as foretold by the Prophet Daniel and the Apostle John. This power made war with the Saints, and overcame them, changed time and laws, "wore out the Saints of the Most High," was drunken with their blood and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus, and destroyed the holy people. But this mystical power, in turn, is to be overcome and, in the due time of the Lord, utterly destroyed."
- Gospel Doctrine, p.192
|LeGrand Richards, in "A Marvelous Work and a Wonder"|
Revelation 13:7 is a general description that applies pre-1830
In our consideration of the apostasy, we referred to what the Lord showed to John while he was on the Isle of Patmos. He saw that power would be given to Satan "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." (Revelation 13:7.)
- A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, p.29
He [Paul] stated further that men cannot look for the second promised advent of the Christ unless there be a "falling away first," so that all we have said is but an announcement that the events predicted have come to pass. When the apostle John was banished upon the Isle of Patmos, he saw the power that would be given to Satan: "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." (Revelation 13:7.) From this, it is evident that all kindreds, tongues, and nations should succumb to this evil power, which we understand more fully when we read that John saw the bringing back of the gospel to the earth to be preached to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. (See Revelation 14:6-7.)
- A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, p36
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Revelation 13:7.)
In order to be able to hold dominion over the kingdoms of the world, Satan's plan has been to destroy all who in any way can detract from his power. Hence, he has put it into the hearts of men to destroy the prophets and servants of the Lord, whose commands he must obey. He put it into the heart of Herod to have all the children under two years of age put to death, in his effort to destroy Jesus and prevent the establishment of His kingdom in the earth. Failing in this attempt, he continued to influence men to persecute Jesus until the Savior was finally put to death -- not because of any evil he had done, but because he stood in the way of Satan's continued supremacy over the kingdoms of this world. A similar fate befell his apostles except John the Beloved, who received the promise from his Master that he might tarry until he should come in his glory. And such, also, was the fate of the saints who were burned as torches and fed to the wild animals by the Romans.
- A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, p.395
|Other references apply to wider history, including the present day|
Bruce R, McConkie: Revelation 13:7 also includes post-1830
From the "Doctrinal New Testament Commentary", commenting on Revelation 7-8:
'"In the last days" (Teachings, p. 293), the beast shall have power over every nation, and shall make war with the saints and prevail over all except those who are true and faithful to the standards of the restored gospel.'
[Note that this is not the same as the total control over the church prior to 1830. It would appear from Elder McConkie that verse 5 is pre-1830 but verse 7 is more general, and has a particular fulfillment in the very last days. In this light it is worth revisiting Revelation 12.]
Ezra Taft Benson: Revelation 12:17 also includes post-1830
[You will recall that it is well established in the church that Revelation 12:6 refers to the period pre-1830]
"We live in that time of which the Lord spoke when He said that "peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion" (D&C 1:35). We live in that day which John the Revelator foresaw when "the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 12:17). The dragon is Satan; the woman represents the Church of Jesus Christ. Satan is waging war against the members of the Church who have testimonies and are trying to keep the commandments. And while many of our members are remaining faithful and strong, some are wavering. Some are falling. Some are fulfilling John's prophecy that in the war with Satan, some Saints would be "overcome" (Revelation 13:7).
- "The Power of the Word," Ensign 16 [May 1986]: 81.
the bottom line
"We do not
need more prophets to speak, we need more ears to listen."
(Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, Apr. 1970)